Comments on: Is “Ashes To Ashes” Rubbish? http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/ Lollards in the high church of low culture Fri, 29 Aug 2008 22:40:33 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.1 By: Koen http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-395206 Koen Fri, 14 Mar 2008 11:30:37 +0000 http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-395206 14: >>We should have a sweepstake on which episode Chris will spend the entirety of trying to solve a rubik’s cube.<< Close, very close! :) 14: >>We should have a sweepstake on which episode Chris will spend the entirety of trying to solve a rubik’s cube.<<

Close, very close! :)

]]> By: Davie Johnman http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-379333 Davie Johnman Sat, 09 Feb 2008 15:55:11 +0000 http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-379333 For the next series, send Gene Hunt back to the 1950, in black and white. With Dixon of Doc Green, Mr Cholmondely Warner and the Lavender Hill Mob for Company. For the next series, send Gene Hunt back to the 1950, in
black and white. With Dixon of Doc Green, Mr Cholmondely Warner and the Lavender Hill Mob for Company.

]]> By: a logged out p^nk s lord sukråt wötsit http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-379181 a logged out p^nk s lord sukråt wötsit Sat, 09 Feb 2008 10:08:03 +0000 http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-379181 lord clue? lord clue?

]]> By: a logged out p^nk s lord sukråt wötsit http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-379180 a logged out p^nk s lord sukråt wötsit Sat, 09 Feb 2008 10:07:39 +0000 http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-379180 i: ok so we discussed my point in the lord clue last night and it was concluded ii: i have not yet made myself clear (!) iii: i need to actually WATCH a2a and plumb the idea in (if possible) iv: back to the future d00d!!?? v: yeeee-ow! i: ok so we discussed my point in the lord clue last night and it was concluded
ii: i have not yet made myself clear (!)
iii: i need to actually WATCH a2a and plumb the idea in (if possible)
iv: back to the future d00d!!??
v: yeeee-ow!

]]> By: pˆnk s lord sükråt cunctør http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-378791 pˆnk s lord sükråt cunctør Fri, 08 Feb 2008 16:21:47 +0000 http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-378791 ie pynchon fits into "rock-crit” in my version and so (sorta kinda justabout supers-quinchily) do larkin and amis pere, tho not necessarily in a good way (obs amis fils can bug-off as per) (ps i am making this up RIGHT NOW and may "adjust" frantically when i find myself approving something WRONG or HORRIBLE) ie pynchon fits into “rock-crit” in my version and so (sorta kinda justabout supers-quinchily) do larkin and amis pere, tho not necessarily in a good way (obs amis fils can bug-off as per)

(ps i am making this up RIGHT NOW and may “adjust” frantically when i find myself approving something WRONG or HORRIBLE)

]]> By: pˆnk s lord sükråt cunctør http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-378790 pˆnk s lord sükråt cunctør Fri, 08 Feb 2008 16:18:50 +0000 http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-378790 i think what i'm arguing is that the advent of "rock-crit"* as a (new?) type of aesthetic address is a declaration that in some (recently established?) way it ISN'T futile -- hence the enormous ghastly allure and/or damage of "the test of time" and like memes *which i'm defining in a rather expansive way content-wise but a rather finicky way time-wise i think what i’m arguing is that the advent of “rock-crit”* as a (new?) type of aesthetic address is a declaration that in some (recently established?) way it ISN’T futile — hence the enormous ghastly allure and/or damage of “the test of time” and like memes

*which i’m defining in a rather expansive way content-wise but a rather finicky way time-wise

]]> By: Marcello Carlin http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-378783 Marcello Carlin Fri, 08 Feb 2008 15:45:09 +0000 http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-378783 What always struck me about someone like BS Johnson is that he writes like a thirties time traveller who somehow landed in the sixties, couldn't quite make sense of it ("Dear Paul MacCarthney") but knows he can't get back* and thus suffocates himself in his own protective shield of I AM RIGHT ROGER FRY SAID SO IN 1933 yet penetrated the process of reading the book while still writing it more successfully than any of his contemporaries e.g. Figes or Burns managed. *and isn't something like La Jetee proof of the futility in trying; girl at Orly airport = Graves' White Goddess => systematic exclusion of unworthy everybody/everything else => finally incl. self? What always struck me about someone like BS Johnson is that he writes like a thirties time traveller who somehow landed in the sixties, couldn’t quite make sense of it (”Dear Paul MacCarthney”) but knows he can’t get back* and thus suffocates himself in his own protective shield of I AM RIGHT ROGER FRY SAID SO IN 1933 yet penetrated the process of reading the book while still writing it more successfully than any of his contemporaries e.g. Figes or Burns managed.

*and isn’t something like La Jetee proof of the futility in trying; girl at Orly airport = Graves’ White Goddess => systematic exclusion of unworthy everybody/everything else => finally incl. self?

]]> By: pˆnk s lord sükråt cunctør http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-378761 pˆnk s lord sükråt cunctør Fri, 08 Feb 2008 14:41:24 +0000 http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-378761 re LoM: sam was never "omigod is this the actual 70s or the TV 70s", was he? seems to me the 80s is the decade where something like that can be a wedge-issue plotwise? (is this what's going on here?) re LoM: sam was never “omigod is this the actual 70s or the TV 70s”, was he?

seems to me the 80s is the decade where something like that can be a wedge-issue plotwise? (is this what’s going on here?)

]]> By: pˆnk s lord sükråt cunctør http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-378758 pˆnk s lord sükråt cunctør Fri, 08 Feb 2008 14:38:44 +0000 http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-378758 well some of what i mean is simply "people on telly never watch telly"; but it is increasingly necessary when you write fiction based in the recent past that people on telly will seem bizarrely unrealistic if they don't have a popcult hinterland that ISN'T just a speedread value-judgement as to character have we entered an era where eg the new "cracker" (or whoever) has to watch ACTUAL REAL brookside to understand the world: jane tennyson what is on yr walkman? (slightly contra marcello's point: people in books DO read books -- this has never been a problematic convention -- so the map isn't exact in the way i'm incoherently worrying at; tho in other ways HURRAH PRECISELY d.hare f.off) well some of what i mean is simply “people on telly never watch telly”; but it is increasingly necessary when you write fiction based in the recent past that people on telly will seem bizarrely unrealistic if they don’t have a popcult hinterland that ISN’T just a speedread value-judgement as to character

have we entered an era where eg the new “cracker” (or whoever) has to watch ACTUAL REAL brookside to understand the world: jane tennyson what is on yr walkman?

(slightly contra marcello’s point: people in books DO read books — this has never been a problematic convention — so the map isn’t exact in the way i’m incoherently worrying at; tho in other ways HURRAH PRECISELY d.hare f.off)

]]> By: Tim http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-378756 Tim Fri, 08 Feb 2008 14:35:55 +0000 http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-378756 (Because big chunks of LoM were basically Back To The Future with police procedurals in place of Chuck Berry guitar riffs.) (Because big chunks of LoM were basically Back To The Future with police procedurals in place of Chuck Berry guitar riffs.)

]]> By: Tim http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-378754 Tim Fri, 08 Feb 2008 14:30:52 +0000 http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-378754 Mark: do you mean insertion of (in)credulous present-day character into just out of reach of memory but close enough to be familiarish into recent history? Or do you mean the this isn't history it's an impression of what stuff was like (THAT'S WHAT HISTORY IS DYS?)? Or something else? Mark: do you mean insertion of (in)credulous present-day character into just out of reach of memory but close enough to be familiarish into recent history? Or do you mean the this isn’t history it’s an impression of what stuff was like (THAT’S WHAT HISTORY IS DYS?)? Or something else?

]]> By: Marcello Carlin http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-378743 Marcello Carlin Fri, 08 Feb 2008 14:05:31 +0000 http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-378743 Actually it is all the fault of yer man Leigh Hunt who in 1810s furiously scribbled away to effect of Wordsworth and Southey are REAL SOUL PASSION HONESTY and BEGONE PLASTIC COCKTAIL POPISTS Keats and Byron (which is exactly why David Hare's bonebrained Keats vs Dylan anti-debate hits the floor* (inbuilt hopelessness of words alone vs. words + music + grain standoff notwithstanding) because as demonstrated especially exquisitely in Motion's biog Keats was viewed EXACTLY the same way viz. LONG HAIRED HIPPY WASTER USE AS CANNON FODDER Lord Liverpool writes) *though to be truthful it hit the floor at my Oxon interview when I was asked the exact same question only it was Lennon or Keats (since JL had been shot the previous day and I had done Keats in depth in my A Level/Higher year at school) and I immediately answered "Cole Porter" and that got me in heh. Actually it is all the fault of yer man Leigh Hunt who in 1810s furiously scribbled away to effect of Wordsworth and Southey are REAL SOUL PASSION HONESTY and BEGONE PLASTIC COCKTAIL POPISTS Keats and Byron

(which is exactly why David Hare’s bonebrained Keats vs Dylan anti-debate hits the floor* (inbuilt hopelessness of words alone vs. words + music + grain standoff notwithstanding) because as demonstrated especially exquisitely in Motion’s biog Keats was viewed EXACTLY the same way viz. LONG HAIRED HIPPY WASTER USE AS CANNON FODDER Lord Liverpool writes)

*though to be truthful it hit the floor at my Oxon interview when I was asked the exact same question only it was Lennon or Keats (since JL had been shot the previous day and I had done Keats in depth in my A Level/Higher year at school) and I immediately answered “Cole Porter” and that got me in heh.

]]> By: pˆnk s lord sükråt cunctør http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-378718 pˆnk s lord sükråt cunctør Fri, 08 Feb 2008 13:13:51 +0000 http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-378718 haha typoe <--- SELF-REFERENTIAL TURNER PRIZE WINNER haha typoe <— SELF-REFERENTIAL TURNER PRIZE WINNER

]]> By: pˆnk s lord sükråt cunctør http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-378717 pˆnk s lord sükråt cunctør Fri, 08 Feb 2008 13:12:54 +0000 http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-378717 ok so who-what-where else has in fact previously tackled the issue of THE HISTORY OF THE RECENT PAST through the now dominant first-draft-of-history scrim of "hoho the 60s/70s/80s WHAT WERE WE THINKING?" (dennis potter and lipstick in yr collar maybe? but this is borderline bcz his favoured memory terrain is before the kind of masscult address* we're looking throujgh here... and-plus individual eps of eg dr who POSSIBLY) (ps i didn't watch any of A2A yet and am basing this on comments so far...) *expandng the idea of "this kind of masscult address": ie looking at periods of history AFTER THERE HAD ARISEN a self-conscious countercultural advocate-journalist typoe, to wrangle "good" pop from "bad' as it happened (where journalist = "first drafter of history then AND now"; what i'm sayin is that there was post c.1968 a NEW BREED OF JOURNO) (er maybe) ok so who-what-where else has in fact previously tackled the issue of THE HISTORY OF THE RECENT PAST through the now dominant first-draft-of-history scrim of “hoho the 60s/70s/80s WHAT WERE WE THINKING?”

(dennis potter and lipstick in yr collar maybe? but this is borderline bcz his favoured memory terrain is before the kind of masscult address* we’re looking throujgh here… and-plus individual eps of eg dr who POSSIBLY)

(ps i didn’t watch any of A2A yet and am basing this on comments so far…)

*expandng the idea of “this kind of masscult address”: ie looking at periods of history AFTER THERE HAD ARISEN a self-conscious countercultural advocate-journalist typoe, to wrangle “good” pop from “bad’ as it happened (where journalist = “first drafter of history then AND now”; what i’m sayin is that there was post c.1968 a NEW BREED OF JOURNO) (er maybe)

]]> By: Tim http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-378712 Tim Fri, 08 Feb 2008 12:49:48 +0000 http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-378712 I was surprised Ray said "Sam came back" - why would Ray have thought that Sam had ever been away? He only tootled off up a train tunnel for a minute or two didn't he? I was surprised Ray said “Sam came back” - why would Ray have thought that Sam had ever been away? He only tootled off up a train tunnel for a minute or two didn’t he?

]]> By: Tim http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-378710 Tim Fri, 08 Feb 2008 12:48:20 +0000 http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-378710 There was a reveal which dealt with that wasn't there - Alex was all "what? He came back? That proves my theory that you can live a zillion years in imaginary-past in the blink of a real world eye CRIPES it's like NARNIAR even though SAM heard stuff from the real world in REAL TIME in LoM", er I may be eliding some of that with a conversation I had this morning. There was a reveal which dealt with that wasn’t there - Alex was all “what? He came back? That proves my theory that you can live a zillion years in imaginary-past in the blink of a real world eye CRIPES it’s like NARNIAR even though SAM heard stuff from the real world in REAL TIME in LoM”, er I may be eliding some of that with a conversation I had this morning.

]]> By: Jack Yan http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-378706 Jack Yan Fri, 08 Feb 2008 12:33:08 +0000 http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-378706 The odd thing is about Sam. Ray is sure that he ‘came back’, and we know he did because we saw that last episode. But does Alex know that? As far as she knows, the story ends when Sam jumped. Here, it does seem there is a sense of some parallel universe in which Gene, Chris and Ray reside—or am I reading way too much into this as I did last year? The odd thing is about Sam. Ray is sure that he ‘came back’, and we know he did because we saw that last episode. But does Alex know that? As far as she knows, the story ends when Sam jumped. Here, it does seem there is a sense of some parallel universe in which Gene, Chris and Ray reside—or am I reading way too much into this as I did last year?

]]> By: Tom http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-378665 Tom Fri, 08 Feb 2008 10:24:47 +0000 http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-378665 We should have a sweepstake on which episode Chris will spend the entirety of trying to solve a rubik's cube. NB Chris' girlfriend-to-be, Shazza - is she coding EARLY INDIE? We should have a sweepstake on which episode Chris will spend the entirety of trying to solve a rubik’s cube.

NB Chris’ girlfriend-to-be, Shazza - is she coding EARLY INDIE?

]]> By: Marcello Carlin http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-378662 Marcello Carlin Fri, 08 Feb 2008 10:18:34 +0000 http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-378662 "A version of 1981 going on in the head of a writer too young to remember much or anything about it first hand and too idle to do any proper research on the era morelike" some might say. The "full on camp Miami Vice stuff" was doubtless shoehorned in with our old friend "overseas sales" in mind. Trouble is for those of us who did live through 1981 it has to ring true because otherwise there's nothing for us to cling to and it becomes another example of mix n' match so what?ism. They can't really use the "this is Greeneland" excuse since the writer clearly isn't Graham Greene. “A version of 1981 going on in the head of a writer too young to remember much or anything about it first hand and too idle to do any proper research on the era morelike” some might say.

The “full on camp Miami Vice stuff” was doubtless shoehorned in with our old friend “overseas sales” in mind.

Trouble is for those of us who did live through 1981 it has to ring true because otherwise there’s nothing for us to cling to and it becomes another example of mix n’ match so what?ism. They can’t really use the “this is Greeneland” excuse since the writer clearly isn’t Graham Greene.

]]> By: Matt DC http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-378649 Matt DC Fri, 08 Feb 2008 09:56:14 +0000 http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-378649 I made the point elsewhere that as this isn't the real 1981, and more a version of 1981 going on in the head of someone too young to really be there at the time, the fact that it's full of inappropriately cobbled together 80s signifiers isn't too much of an obstacle for me. I liked the full on camp Miami Vice stuff more than the 'OMG Zippy' stuff. What this lacks so far is the sense of the social tension of the time and sense of impending disaster just beyond the horizon that characterised Life on Mars. Other than Gene Hunt going "everyone hates us now" and a bit of 'lol yuppies', that is. I made the point elsewhere that as this isn’t the real 1981, and more a version of 1981 going on in the head of someone too young to really be there at the time, the fact that it’s full of inappropriately cobbled together 80s signifiers isn’t too much of an obstacle for me.

I liked the full on camp Miami Vice stuff more than the ‘OMG Zippy’ stuff. What this lacks so far is the sense of the social tension of the time and sense of impending disaster just beyond the horizon that characterised Life on Mars. Other than Gene Hunt going “everyone hates us now” and a bit of ‘lol yuppies’, that is.

]]> By: steve http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-378637 steve Fri, 08 Feb 2008 09:15:30 +0000 http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-378637 Marcello, the trailer for next week reveals a DeLorean. So, not long. Marcello, the trailer for next week reveals a DeLorean. So, not long.

]]> By: Marcello Carlin http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-378628 Marcello Carlin Fri, 08 Feb 2008 08:41:57 +0000 http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-378628 To paraphrase that contemporary model of stalwart British permanence, i.e. the security guard who sits at the desk in the new Emu series: "YOUR NAME IS GOING IN THE BOOK!" To paraphrase that contemporary model of stalwart British permanence, i.e. the security guard who sits at the desk in the new Emu series: “YOUR NAME IS GOING IN THE BOOK!”

]]> By: logged out Sarah http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-378626 logged out Sarah Fri, 08 Feb 2008 08:36:11 +0000 http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-378626 Egads Tom this was quick, you beat me to it! I really enjoyed it actually but then again 2008 IS the year of fanfic, and also I guess for the purposes of this (and any other thread) I am a Thatcherkid so evil Zippy REALLY WORKED for me ha. Egads Tom this was quick, you beat me to it!

I really enjoyed it actually but then again 2008 IS the year of fanfic, and also I guess for the purposes of this (and any other thread) I am a Thatcherkid so evil Zippy REALLY WORKED for me ha.

]]> By: Marcello Carlin http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-378620 Marcello Carlin Fri, 08 Feb 2008 08:22:02 +0000 http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-378620 (pps: how long before they succumb to Back To The Future referencing?) (pps: how long before they succumb to Back To The Future referencing?)

]]> By: Marcello Carlin http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-378619 Marcello Carlin Fri, 08 Feb 2008 08:21:04 +0000 http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/2008/02/is-ashes-to-ashes-rubbish/#comment-378619 (and Alastair Gray's Lanark definitely needs to come into consideration here for multiple reasons) (and Alastair Gray’s Lanark definitely needs to come into consideration here for multiple reasons)

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