Something I Realised About Doctor Who
There are some pop-cult things which have gone from cult fan appreciation to mainstream currency. And there are some - probably more - which have gone from mainstream popularity to being the preserve of a relatively tiny fandom. As a pop fan I’ve seen the former journey many times; as a comics fan the latter.
Doctor Who is the only thing I can think of which has done both - gone from being a completely mainstream family TV show to being a smaller and smaller fan concern and then back to enormous top-rated popularity again.
Surely there must be others?
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Pete on May 2nd, 2007
Er, this Friday has a good example I think in Spider-Man.
Star Trek I think made this flip-flop too, and then latterly (post TNG) back into even more mental fandom.
Oh and the Labour Party! (Ha Ha. But actually when you think about the mid eighties, it does kind of work - including radical overhaul).
FT's Tim on May 2nd, 2007
Ill-informed long term cultural ups & downs
- complete works of Shakespeare (pop when he was alive, kind of faded a bit, became v pop (actually probably more Classic Rock but lets not go there) in C18th I think, though I actually don’t know if this is true, and stayed so thereafter
- works of Homer (big deal in ancient Greece, largely lost, came back to greater fame and fortune than ever with JASON AND THE ARGONAUTS involving plasticine skellies fiteing real blokes and that)
Tom on May 2nd, 2007
I was thinking Star Trek but the impression I always got is that it was a pretty minor deal during its original run (hence getting cancelled)
Pete on May 2nd, 2007
It ran three seasons, it was pretty popular (at least popular to a level of say Bonanza). It got cancelled more because it was expensive.
Batman from a TV perspective fits this nicely of course. Massive deal in the sixties, ridiculed almost in the seventies, massive deal in the late eighties (defined a second gen baby boomer thingy).
Tom on May 2nd, 2007
Yes good one!
The reason I’m interested in this - and Batman is a very good example - is the tensions and relations between the various fanbases and especially how the older fans use a previous mainstream to act against a current mainstream. As well as all the other questions surrounding “do you want the things you’re into to do well?”.
Kat on May 2nd, 2007
Blokes having long hair: v fashionable up until 1640s, then back in style 1660-1800 (1800 = when WIG TAX was introduced!), then cool again late 60s-late 70s!
Pete on May 2nd, 2007
There is very much the tacit acknowledgement that for something to do well that certain sacrifices may need to be made (and one of the comics to film issues would be forty years or more of tortuous continuity). Doctor Who did this quiet well by distancing its past but sort of accepting that it kind of happened (but a lot happened we don’t know about which changes the rules).
Are there people who believe in a continuity between all the recent Batman films? Do people (want to) believe that Bale’s Batman becomes Keatons becomes Kilmers becomes Clooney’s? I think in the nineties this might have been important, but doesn’t seem to be now. Plus the cartoons, plus the comics (plus the various interpretations in the comics). This divergence also allows fans to have their favourite Batman / Doctor Who (serendipitously BUILT INTO the Who character infact).
Tom on May 2nd, 2007
Before Batman Begins came out the feeling was “ah, it’s a prequel”. But then BB turned out to be good (or ‘good’ in the sense of fan-approved, I still haven’t seen it) and suddenly the feeling was “OK it’s a reboot hurrah” - the Joker app in the next one will confirm this.
But of course the thing with hardcore Batman fans is that the comics Batman is Bat-alpha so it doesn’t matter so much what happens with the rest. On the other hand stuff like “Year One” proves that fans will happily accept continuity tinkerings if they think the comics are great.
What interests me is the expectation gap between the hardcore fans who want adult themes and the mainstream fans who don’t care (there are also hardcore fans who want NON-adult themes of course).
steve m on May 2nd, 2007
Battlestar Galactica? there must’ve been a small faithful following for the panned sequel show.
Andy M on May 2nd, 2007
I’m not sure whether people changed their minds abt Batman Begins after they’d seen it because something happens at the end which contradicts the Burton films.
Isn’t it all just cyclical ? Star Trek is a good example of smthing which went away, came back again and now has pretty much gone away again… except it will come back again big style next year when the original series prequel movie is released. Sure there will be a time when New Series Who is widely mocked as well, and RTD does interviews for DVD special features defending the special effects.
Pete on May 2nd, 2007
It is cyclical, but you have to work hard to make it come back as “big”. But there I think is a direct relationship between something being away for a long time and how it can come back. Who skipped a generation, ie the people who are in charge of what is cool (early twenties) were not aware of how uncool it had become. Realistically you need ten years in the wildness to reset something that got really tarnished.
BSG is an interesting one because no-one was really that excited about its return, indeed it seemed a daft idea. But there was not such a multimedia presence of the original show - the general public (and small fandom) not caring allowed the new series to work to its advantage.
That said, you can’t just bring something back and expect the goodwill to do the work for you. Who showed that (and verious attempts at bring back Tarzan have failed for this reason), and Star Trek needs to learn this lesson: but might have too large a fan base to succeed (see Star Wars). A Prequel is a daft place to go, a young new actor playing James T Kirk… It does not allow any surprise in the series.