Aug 06

prøg pub tribunal: jerüsalem årty choke division

FT + Pumpkin Publog27 comments • 9,800 views

lego tarkusok so p^nk s the high lord sükråt cunctør* took plebian form at the JERUSALEM TAVERN** to dally with the puissant lords woebot and kpunk and duke pill of box, plus also another fellow called matt who HAF NO BLOG TITLE :0 but was instrumental in gettin us a table which is possibly definitely a greater boon to mankind at that

kerplunk was sadly under the weather — banjaxxed by a combo of the HORROR of Q mag’s GUILTY PLEASURES column (mark had apparently always respected Q until then) and a personalised viral weapon crafted by the CIA from Roswell tech to target the success of his website — and matt was subsquently called from us by unexpected parental duty but even so it was a VERY NICE EVENING

here is what was discussed/debated: the manipulation and psychopathology of the news; the need for more quasi-maoist culture tribunals***; big brother and the info-streaming instant edit techniques developed to make it possible; green gartside; annette peacock; mahavishnu and prog in general****; when was the nme good?; meeting yr heroes; being psychoanalysts; friendship and shyness; y2k and hypersitition; dads on the phone

E.P.THOMPSON: The Making of the English Working Class
E.P.THOMPSON: Against Theory
E.P.THOMPSON: Witness Against the Beast — William Blake and the Moral Law
CHRISTOPHER HILL: The World Turned Upside Down
CHRISTOPHER HILL: Puritanism and Revolution
CHRISTOPHER HILL: Liberty Against the Law — Some 17th century Controversies*****
KEITH THOMAS: Religion and the Decline of Magic
MERVYN PEAKE: Captain Slaughterboard Drops Anchor******

slaughterboard*ir rhizomatic = ph34r my roXoR
**what is a PUBTIMIST judgment of of the JT? it is georgian ultrapastiche but USED TO BE A KEBAB SHOP hurrah <---ps THIS IS THE ACTUAL QUESTION BEING ARSKED
***first tribunal topic=DAVID SYLVIAN obv
****i do not consider mahavishnu prog, they are JAZZ FUSION — haha and apawboy said “it’s like logarithms made into music” AS IF THIS WOULD BE SOME KIND OF A BAD THING: logarithms rock and so do def leppard
*****this have stuff abt PIRATES
******and THIS TOO

(this has been a SüKRåT/FT co-production)


  1. 1
    pˆnk s lord sükråt cunctør on 12 Aug 2006 #

    haha i hadn’t actually read the final hypergoofy sentence of THIS before we met last night, or i wd have teased him mercilessly, ILLNESS OR NO ILLNESS: “Pubs, like universities, are unredeemable; nothing can ever happen in them. That is what they are for: to suck everything into a black hole of vegetative inertia… ” PROJECTION MUCH eh??!? The Dissensus conformist position seems to have become TOTAL SELF-ABNEGATION BEFORE THE COMMODITY: “We’re DOOMED AND ENTOMBED within KAPITAL FOREVER TRIUMPHANT (and secretly we love it bcz it gets us off the hook)”. It’s not big, it’s not clever, it’s NOT MARXISM. Strangely enough if you spend all yr days translating the ENTIRE social and cultural world into a multilayered counsel for despair YOU WILL GENERATE DESPAIR!! Anyway as I sed I had a nice evening, so his apothegm falls even without my wAcKy poonk KaPiTaLz. GET WELL SOON MARK!!!

  2. 2
    alext on 12 Aug 2006 #

    I’ve never quite understood how k-punk can justify generalising his own negative experiences with universities into a blanket dismissal. This is like the misreading of the Frankfurt School which says ‘all culture = bad’. What makes universities interesting is that they have always been about producing people for the professions (originally for the clergy!) and so have always had to work for society as is, but that this then gets crossed with the aesthetic discourse of disinterest and critique. And just as the aesthetic model produced works which would always fail, to a greater or lesser extent, because never pure or independent enough, so no university would or could ever live up to its ideal. But just as art isn’t cancelled out by its failure to achieve autotelic perfection, nor are universities irredeemably destroyed by their obvious and necessary participation in wider social and commercial forces. And just as their are many people in the arts who are manifestly poor at what they do, so academia will attract people who are more interested in getting by than destroying or questioning the system. While there are some particularly pernicious forms of pseudo-radicalism and much good-natured but wrong-headed quasi-political posturing doing the rounds within the university system in Britain, most of what happens to the students as they go through university happens despite, rather than because of, direct faculty involvement. Yet it’s rare for people to identify art with its failures (a failed artist is not an artist) instead tending to separate out the downside as some abstraction such as ‘the art world’, whereas people are all to happy to see only the negative side of the university.

  3. 3
    pˆnk s lord sükråt cunctør on 12 Aug 2006 #

    to be fair to mark, i was virulently anti-pub for years and years and to this day have a highly conflicted attitude to academia, more suspicion than not — so i am somewhat poking fun at him here for being so foolish as to hold views i have brilliantly just this second abandoned

    of course it doesn’t help the clarity of either of our cases that i consider k-punk to be PART of academia, while he most strenuously does not

  4. 4
    pˆnk s lord sükråt cunctør on 13 Aug 2006 #

    apawboy reminds me we also discussed the good (and bad) sides of wales, and whether j0n s4v4ge lives in a castle

  5. 5
    mark k-p on 13 Aug 2006 #

    Playing to the gallery here a bit Mark I think…

    Still, I suppose you need a straw man to make obligatory optimism seem that it’s something other than m/class complacency :-) …

    And I do wonder who is projecting: this silly thing Kapital forever triumphant has nothing to do with anything I’ve ever said. I don’t think we’re doomed at all, but what WOULD ensure that we are forever doomed is never being allowed to be critical (why are you so scared of negation?) Simple dialectical move – things will remain bad while we think they are not bad.

    I don’t want to produce despair, I want to ATTACK the university. (Remember when we were allowed to attack things? Coincided with the time that NME was good)

    btw I don’t know in what sense I’m ‘part of academia’. Because I read books? I don’t hold a teaching position in a university. My whole approach is what universities – cooling and blocking systems – are set up to destroy. Compare them with art schools….

    My position on universities is not based on my experience – all arguments from experience are bad and reactionary – but on their dismal PRODUCTS.

    As for pubs, I think my loathing of them was more than justified by Friday. How much more pleasant would it have been if like we could have heard each other? Of course I’ve long since accepted that if you want to socialize with British people, you have to do it in pubs.

    On this bizarrely fantasmatic Dissensus thing, three straightforward misconceptions here:
    (1)that there is a Dissensus position
    (2) that if there were any such a position wouldn’t be totally in line with pubbish commonsense and
    (3)that Dissensus has got anything to do with me (I got hounded off that board months ago)….

  6. 6
    pˆnk s lord sükråt cunctør on 13 Aug 2006 #

    i. hear each other = choose a quiet pub! you should have put yr foot down!!
    ii. all communities have unconscious hiveminds or they wouldn’t be communities
    iii. however i am SO BUSTED on the “fantasmatic Dissensus accusation” as i have not read it beyond fragments for months myself, and certainly did not know you were off it! (actually you said something abt “dissensian debacle” in yr earlier email didn’t you — i meant to ask you abt that); it was a shorthand for thing that pisses me off, which i think you ARE a bit guilty of selectively

    i think there is a remnant of baudrillardian totalist rhetoric in yr phrasemaking — that’s what i’m reacting to mainly (bcz he is a reactionary cynic, which you aren’t) (it’s HIS nothing-is-possible-anymore that i’ve grown to distrust and hate);

    i’m sorry you had a bad night on fri and i’m sorry you were ill and feeling rubbish; nevertheless despite this, i enjoyed it and didn’t think “nothing happened” or that i turned into a vegetable — not least bcz of the random element of meeting that other matt, and being annoyed by him at first and then coming to hear his rhythm and picture… if we’d organised totally to avoid risk elements (haha = if woebot knew a better pub) then that wouldn’t have happened… and if you’d this is really horrible let’s go somewhere else, then we could have done that — that’s the tie-up i suppose, that yr “attack” doesn’t actually happen at the point where it’s needed for YOUR PSYCHIC HEALTH

    (and of course part of the story here is that for YEARS i was very hostile to any kind of organised socialising — oh noes it was a TRAP! — and i made myself really really miserable and isolated; and discovering that actually i’m allowed to step out and choose my surroundings and companions to keep me energised and undepressive was a hughe change in my life)

    (what i realised was that i was quite bad at setting up the parameters for the social adventure all by myself — i need to use something that already exists as a jumping-off-point, and i had taught myself to distrust all “things that already existed”: so i became a bit more tolerant of them, and frankly the boundaries i’d set MYSELF just seemed to epxlode outwards)

    academia = well, you tend to justify pop-cult work by reaching out to theorists; work is good when it accords with zizek’s insights, or whatever (rather than when it clashes with them) — you’ve demonstrated previously that these theorists are “non-standard” as academics, and “outside the academy” and whatever, and that’s fair enough — but they are all WRITERS with a basis in PHILOSOPHY. “Academia” goes back to Socrates and his little drinking gang hanging around under the trees trying to explain the world in terms of first (metaphysical) principles.

    their dismal PRODUCTS = you and me and simonR and marcello and… e.p.thompson and christopher hill and… i too always say “well, i’m not an academic”, but no one listens

    why am i allergic to negation? well unlike the essay they round off the sentences i quoted aren’t “critical”, they’re just rhetorical — and it’s true that i favour materialist exploration of “how it works”, and what are the useful and the dark sides WITHIN any given institution, that’s just how my mind works, i get bored with discussions that respect the shape and name the world at large gives any phenomenon or institution

    but on the other hand when i DO “attack” something — like you a bit here, or anyway this setnence, and the “dissensus hivemind” — or even persons which i am very reliably and openly hostile to (like terry eagleton or baudrillard or nick broomfield) — i can be VERY EASILY made to feel bad about it, as i am doing now here

    i’m just not cut out to be an attack monkey, i think — i am generally unconvinced by attack-work (simon is at his worst in this mode; so is benW) — but of course that also means that if there’s something that niggles me abt someone’s work it builds and builds and then explodes in a form they don’t recognise — this happened with simon on FT a couple of years back (i mean, i was right abt what i said, but completely unnecssarily hostile); and now it’s kinda happened here a bit with you :(

  7. 7
    pˆnk s lord sükråt cunctør on 13 Aug 2006 #

    i notice i have avoided saying what the “thing that pisses me off” is :D

  8. 8
    pˆnk s lord sükråt cunctør on 13 Aug 2006 #

    May as well post the following here as it always makes me chuckle, and definitely speaks to my temperament, if nothing else — Alexander Cockburn in the Nation in 1985:

    I open my mail. I find a letter from the International Socialist Organisation. It begins:

    “Dear Sir or Madam
    The future looks bleak: Racist repression in South Africa. Mass starvation in Ethiopia. Near-record poverty in the US… Racist and sexist oppression is a fact of everyday life. Is there any way out?”

    What’s the matter with the left? How about:

    “Dear Sir or Madam,
    The future looks great: White slavers on the run in South Africa. The opening of a revolutionary era in Ethiopia. Popular rage in US. Racist and sexist oppression under atack everywhere.”

    You don’t get far by making people feel bad. My father used to quote sadly the old Communis Party recruiter back in the 1930s: “Brothers and sisters, even as I speak our comrades in Latin America are writhing in the torturer’s thumbscrews, our comrades in India starving in the the stinking jails of British imperialism, our comrades in Africa groaning under the book of the oppressor. Brothers and sisters, join the Communist Party.

  9. 9
    Alan on 13 Aug 2006 #

    the missing bit of that letter: “I hope it’s going to be alright. Cos the music lasts forever”

  10. 10
    RickyT on 14 Aug 2006 #

    Anyone who says that Mahavishnu = logarithms set to music does not understand logarithms! If they’d said e.g. Dijkstra’s shortest path ALGOrithm then they might have a point (i.e. finding the direct route eventually, but only by a process of going nearly everywhere in a carefully directed yet also semi-random way [technique also called EDGE RELAXATION haha]).

    Also JT is a good pub, but this is largely for ale based reasons.

    Also2 Mark, next we are in the pub, remind me to tell you about my theory that the Crazy Frog is the nu-godfather of minimal techno.

  11. 11
    pˆnk s lord sükråt cunctør on 14 Aug 2006 #

    there is a moment in adorno’s essay on stockhausen where he sez smfn like “those of us drawn to music at skool bcz they ph34r3d mathematics are lookin WELL GLUM MATEY”

  12. 12
    Tim Hopkins on 14 Aug 2006 #

    As posted over there:

    The Jerusalem Tavern: my judgement is that it could do with being a bit less impressed with itself, but it’s overall pretty good if you can get a table. If no table: discomfort and misery.

    Also they could do with a session beer, because multiple boozes of their St Peter’s varieties = headache morning bindeath.

    (Additionally: I would never choose to go there on a Friday night for reasons of packedness. The chatters’ choice in that neighbourhood on a Friday is The Sekforde Arms, just for future reference like.)

  13. 13
    pˆnk s lord sükråt cunctør on 14 Aug 2006 #

    yes it was horribly packed when we arrived, and as a result very noisy — hence i had a REVELATION in ref.flocked wallpaper = it absorbs noise better than poncy “georgian” ceramic tiles, which have a bathroom karaoke effekt

    we eventually had to move outside and sit on the pavement, which to a dying man was surely a mortification too far — esp.as it began raining and we had to move into the dickensian passage by the binbags

  14. 14
    Tim Hopkins on 14 Aug 2006 #

    (Not sure if comments box lurker Mark M is seeing this but he might find the origin of the term Wyatting of some passing interest.)

  15. 15
    pˆnk s lord sükråt cunctør on 14 Aug 2006 #


  16. 16
    alext on 14 Aug 2006 #

    ‘ “Musicians are usually truants from maths classes,’ quips Adorno, ‘it would be a terrible fate for them to end up in the hands of the maths teacher after all’ [Quasi una Fantasia p. 269]. Adorno: A Guide for the Perplexed p.42

  17. 17
    pˆnk s lord sükråt cunctør on 14 Aug 2006 #

    QuF is my third favourite TWA book after MinMol and the Wagner one — i like eg where he effervesces about zemlinsky who was clearly the darling of his teenage indie years

    and his stockhausen essay is pretty good — much better than PhilModMus

  18. 18
    Marcello Carlin on 15 Aug 2006 #

    “Why do I never get asked to do these things?” (Frank Sinatra re. Cannonball Run, pp me)

    (actually p^nk s has repeatedly asked me to do these and similar things of late but Canada rules my world in all horizons at the moment thus alas still the Annette Peacock bit would have been worth taping)

  19. 19
    pˆnk s lord sükråt cunctør on 15 Aug 2006 #

    your name came up during that discussion marcello!

  20. 20
    Marcello Carlin on 15 Aug 2006 #

    Quite right too! ;-)

  21. 21
    alext on 25 Sep 2006 #

    I was reading Liberty Against the Law last night: but what was the reading list here actually for?

  22. 22

    thompson and hill came up at length in the discussion except i confusingly kept calling hill “keith thomas” — who ip had not heard of — so we had to nail down the luminaries of the school and why they mattered

  23. 23
    alext on 25 Sep 2006 #

    Well I’m enjoying L vs L. I have a couple of other books by Hill somewhere I think (certainly World Upside Down) which I’ve been meaning to read, but L vs L is speaking directly to my current thinking. Also raising my assessment of Sir Walter S even more highly — which novelists before Scott spend so much time on local legal disputes?

  24. 24
    alext on 25 Sep 2006 #

    Also — would Hobsbawm count as one of this gang?

  25. 25

    not to me — i own the book he wrote w.george rude on “captain swing” (hi robin!) but it is a real slog compared to the others — i think hobbo is a v.boring top-downer at heart

  26. 26
    alext on 25 Sep 2006 #

    That makes sense; I must have a go at EPT some time soon.

  27. 27
    Mike on 6 Jan 2007 #

    just test

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